Transcript
Kevin: When we think of apprenticeships, we often think of common fields like manufacturing, construction, and plumbing. But now, with more than three-quarters of U.S. states experiencing teacher shortages, some believe apprenticeship programs might be the answer. What do you teacher apprenticeship programs look like? How can they benefit our future educators? And can apprenticeship programs alleviate our country's staggering teacher shortage? This is "What I Want to Know." And today I'm joined by David Donaldson to find out.
David: At the end of the day, we do not have enough people applying for open positions, and kids deserve the very best. And so let's focus on that. Let's bring it back to kids and not arguments over, "Well, this place doesn't have a shortage," or, "It's a distribution issue." No, if one kid doesn't have the teacher they need and deserve, we have a problem.
Kevin: When we think of apprenticeships, we often think of common fields like manufacturing, construction, and plumbing. But now, with more than three-quarters of U.S. states experiencing teacher shortages, some believe apprenticeship programs might be the answer. What do you teacher apprenticeship programs look like? How can they benefit our future educators? And can apprenticeship programs alleviate our country's staggering teacher shortage? This is "What I Want to Know." And today I'm joined by David Donaldson to find out.
David Donaldson is the founder and managing partner of the National Center for Grow Your Own, a nonprofit organization working to expand the teaching workforce. David was the lead author on the approved application by the U.S. Department of Labor to federally recognize the teaching and school principal occupations as eligible for registered apprenticeship. He joins us today to discuss the benefits of teacher apprenticeship programs. David, welcome to the show.
David Donaldson, thank you so much for joining us on "What I Want to Know." And welcome to the show.
David: Thank you for having me, Kevin. It's an honor to be here.
Kevin: You know, I really am excited about the work you're doing. I want to hear more about Grow. I want to hear more about the teacher apprenticeship program. But first things first, I mean, you were a teacher at one time. Tell us a little bit about your journey. What led you to, one, the teaching profession, and what led you to leave the profession in the way you did, ending up doing the work you're doing now?
David: Yeah, so I actually wanted to be a baseball coach. That's where things started. And so you can't make a living being a baseball coach, and so that's actually what caused me to fall into teaching. And yet, by becoming a teacher in Baltimore City Public Schools, it is still to this day the hardest job that I ever had, but actually, you know, also the most rewarding. Just actually last year, I was able to go to Baltimore and see some of my students that I hadn't seen in 15 years.
Kevin: Oh, wow.
David: But I had started as a substitute teacher while coaching baseball, and then I started, you know, tutoring students after school. And one thing led to another and pursued becoming a teacher and the greatest career move I ever made.
Kevin: What were you teaching?
David: High school English, 9th and 10th grade, and was very fortunate that in my second year was able to loop with my students from my first year.
Kevin: Now, not only were you in Baltimore. As I understand it, you also had some education experience in Detroit and New York.
David: That is correct. So after my time in Baltimore, I was very blessed that the CEO or Superintendent Dr. Andrés Alonso, who's actually now an Advisory Board member for the National Center for Grow Your Own, he wrote a letter for me to go to Harvard Graduate School of Education. And one of the reasons he wrote that letter is I had spent a summer, in between my first and second year teaching, working at Baltimore City Schools headquarters. I was on the Family and Community Engagement team as a fellow, and I was the only member of that team, I think it was a staff of about 16, 17 folks, who had ever taught.
Kevin: Oh, wow.
David: And so there was a certain perspective that I brought to the table as a teacher, especially because I was working on a chronic absenteeism initiative. I say all that to say that that's what really motivated me to have more teacher voice at the policy, you know, and decision-making table.
And so after going to grad school, I was able to work for the New York City Department of Education where one of the best training grounds of all time for how large of a system that is. And then was blessed to return home to the Detroit area, I'm from the suburbs originally, but worked for Detroit Public Schools as a principal. Part of that reason was, is based on my work in New York, I was actually advising principals and I had never walked a mile in their shoes. So why was I doing that? I was not qualified. So I wanted that hands-on experience and was blessed to work as a principal in Detroit Public Schools and then move on to the central office level there.
Kevin: It's fascinating because you've had such a varied experience in a number of school districts. And these school districts are in many ways challenging school districts. As you said, they can be equally rewarding, but they're not a walk in the park. When you talk about Detroit, you're talking about Baltimore, you're talking about New York City. And having had experience as a teacher, an administrator, a principal, I mean, what are your thoughts about where we are educationally, both inside and outside the system? And I do want to get into the apprenticeship issue. But you've had such a wide and varied experience with some major school districts. How do you think we're doing? What's going on?
David: You know, what I would say to that right now is that this is an opportunity right now to change the game. Whether that is around the science of reading and training folks on that and using the opportunity of the learning loss that's occurred to focus on how we should be teaching our students moving forward.
For me personally, as shared, I'm focused on the human capital aspect. I think the biggest lesson that I've taken away from working in Baltimore, Detroit, New York City, and Tennessee is leadership matters. But second, if more people played their part, I think we can actually make a bigger difference. I am the first one to identify as not being an instructional leader. I've met instructional leaders. That is the best way to know you are not one when you hear these people talk about their passion. And so, for me, I realized that my passion was actually more around building teams and ensuring every child has not only the teacher they need and deserve.
And so where I'm very blessed now is that I'm focused on just that singular passion of removing financial barriers and changing who gets to become a teacher and how they are prepared. And again, I think if more people focus on their strengths, and they collaborate with other people who are strong, it's amazing what can actually be done in this space.
Kevin: I think that's very insightful, David. Frankly, so many people in the system, heck, in all walks of life are miscast. They're doing jobs that they really don't have the skill sets to do. And the challenge is in the school system is it's hierarchical. So if you do well, you spend enough time as a teacher, you may get promoted to administration. And then maybe you become assistant or deputy or area principal, and then maybe you can become superintendent.
But I remember years ago, a superintendent in D.C. public schools, a former superintendent told me that there's a challenge with that, that sort of miscast placement if you will, because when you're a superintendent or you run a school district, or you're an area superintendent and you run part of a school district, then you're called upon to make decisions about food service, roof repair, construction, transportation. And unless you are trained, or you have developed some experience around how to make the best decisions, you oftentimes are caught at the whim of who's done it before. And sometimes it doesn't even factor in whether or not they're doing a good job. So this idea of people being put in the right role, I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think it can make a difference in school districts.
David: Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I think a lot of it has to do with I was just blessed to work under some great leaders. So when I was in New York City, I was trained by a gentleman who had worked there for over 35 years, Sandy Brower, and he'll forever be a very important person in my life. And in that case, I was actually also the only person that had ever taught, but I was the Chief of Staff for Business Services. I didn't know the first thing about business services, but I knew how to dot i's and cross t's. And he said, "I don't need you to know the subject matter. I need you to make sure things are getting done." And you pick up things along the way.
And then because of that experience, eventually, when I was in Detroit, the former COO of New York City Public Schools moved to Detroit, Veronica Conforme, and she just took me under her wing. And I think there's something to be said about getting experience. That's one advice I'd have to anybody starting in this work is get experience as a chief of staff or a Jack or Jill of many trades to then find out what actually excites you, what makes you passionate. I think you can . . . Being exposed, for me, to accountability and data was a very quick lesson to realize that doesn't interest me. And so I was able to then work in things that I'm actually excited about.
And to your other point, one of my mentors, who unfortunately recently passed away, Dr. Lillian Laurie, she's the one who told me about the Peter Principle, where so many folks just get promoted simply because they were good in their previous job, but that does not mean they have the skills or experience or quality for the next role. And sometimes it's just due to being the last person standing. And I think that's where my talent passion comes out because we need to have real succession planning, and more leaders being willing to identify what they know, but more importantly what they don't know and willing to surround themselves with people that are smarter than them in those areas where they may have gaps.
Kevin: I want to talk about how you landed where you did land in terms of this human capital issue. But on top of that, since we're talking about people in education, great people and have great skills, but may not be in the job that's the right fit for those skills. For you to come to that realization, you had to go through some type of self-analysis. Talk a little bit about the process that you went through because I think it's instructive for many people who are similarly situated. But talk about that process internally, where you said, "You know what, I've done these things. I've had this experience. For me, this is where I need to go." Because oftentimes, that self-analysis is not an easy process for people to undergo.
David: You know, I appreciate the way you are framing it, but I think you're giving me more credit than I deserve. I want to give credit back to the people like Sandy Brower and Veronica Conforme and others, who they saw something in me that I did not see, that I did not know. They saw that, wait, he actually has a pretty good gut instinct and identifying who would be a good fit here or not and different things like that. He's able to ask that one extra question to understand that this is a skill-based position. We're not hiring for personality solely. We are hiring for fit, but they've got to deliver. And will they work well under this fast-paced environment?
And so I think that was something that people took a chance on me and helped me realize these certain things. At the same time, when I opened with saying I wanted to be a baseball coach, my dream job, actually, and it's still a dream, I guess, you could say is to be the general manager of the Detroit Tigers. That is my pure passion. But it goes back to assembling teams. And they notice that David has never hired a yes person to work for him. He's always hired somebody that can challenge his thinking or push him to the next level. And that's because if you're focused in public education on a mission, it should not be about any one individual. It's about how do we do this all together and make it better so that kids win.
And so I think I can read . . . Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to look back now and see how this all played out. But I'm very fortunate for the times things didn't work out, and I'm very fortunate for the people that mentored me and knew more about me than I knew about myself.
Kevin: How did you actualize all of this, once you realize that this human capital and how you get the best talent that can actually do the job effectively? And how do you make sure you have people placed in the right positions? How did you actualize that and ultimately lead to the National Center for Grow Your Own?
David: Yeah, great question. I mean, frankly, a lot of trial and error, right, a lot of listening to folks. I mean, from the outside looking in, especially because of New York City, you treat, in my experience, sorry, an I statement, when it's such a large system, you're looking at human capital from a data lens. But then when I was in Detroit, in a smaller environment, you get to know the actual people. And I think there's actually benefits of both. You need to know how to operate at scale and make objective choices. But at the same time, I think one just very obvious experience, but it wasn't obvious to me at the time, is in Detroit, where I had teacher shortages, I was amazed how many teachers we were losing that were leaving the system that if simply we negotiated with the union to allow for more open transfers, we could keep people.
And so all I mean by that is sometimes it's just a personality conflict. They're not a good fit under a certain principal. That does not mean they are not a good fit for teaching students. And so setting up people to thrive and recognizing that it's not just widgets like you might have to look at it in such a large system in New York City, in my youth. But now seeing that actually, how do I focus on retention and recruitment?
I think how this then eventually gets to the National Center for Grow Your Own is this goes back to this idea that everybody needs to play their part. And I think we really need to focus on how we change the teaching profession. I believe we need to pay teachers more. I think there's a lot of political issues that need to be addressed. But what is in my locus of control, and what actually gets me out of bed in the morning and excited? And frankly, it goes back to my mom. My mom was my school cafeteria worker who taught Sunday school and Vacation Bible School for over two decades, but could not afford to go to college. And yet my father is a West Point alum. So he gets to go to school for free for committing to public service via the military.
Well, teaching is a public service as well. And yes, we do have public service loan forgiveness, but you usually have to teach for 10 years first before you get that. What if we could actually remove that financial barrier on the front end? Imagine all the doors we could unlock for talent that is throughout not just our schools, but our broader school communities and our communities at large to address these teacher shortages. And that's what really inspired me and continues to this day to remove those financial barriers for aspiring teachers.
Kevin: You've said that you want to, "Create a world where an aspiring educator can become a teacher for free and get paid to do so." How are we making that happen through your organization?
David: Yeah, yeah. And I usually preface that with feel free to laugh. But that is our goal.
Kevin: I just smiled. I didn't laugh. It wasn't a full laugh.
David: I appreciate that. I mean, it's very Don Quixote-esque. We're chasing down windmills, dreaming the impossible dream. But why not? Why not dream big? Never let a crisis go to waste.
Kevin: That's right.
David: And so with the teacher shortages, and I know people have different views on that, but I kind of look at it like this. At the end of the day, we do not have enough people applying for open positions, and kids deserve the very best. And so let's focus on that. Let's bring it back to kids and no arguments over, "Well, this place doesn't have a shortage," or, "It's a distribution issue." No, if one kid doesn't have the teacher they need and deserve, we have a problem. And that's the way we should be focusing on this. And so if our most valuable asset as a country is our future, is our youth, our students, then what should we be doing to fix that?
And for me, as somebody who was blessed to have city or core members or work with an amazing paraprofessional. And frankly, I think a lot of first-year teachers would admit that the paraprofessional was the one actually instructing them as a teacher. There's a lot of talent, skills, and experience that they bring. And so, in my experience, whether you are 25, 35, 45, 55, or 65 years old, if you have a heart for kids, that cannot be taught. You can teach someone elementary, you can teach someone math, you can teach someone special ed, but you can't teach someone to have a heart for kids.
And so as a former principal, if you were to ask me, "Who are the five best people that would be an awesome teacher if given the chance," I would have instantly named two paraprofessionals, a parent, a city or core member, and then a tutor.
I knew as a principal because you're always recruiting as a principal, you're always recruiting as a chief talent officer. And so why are we making it so hard for these people? Like, oh, yeah, we do tuition reimbursement. No, we need to do tuition investment. These people have already invested in us by either working here, or sending their children here, or paying their tax dollars, year after year after year by being a member of this community. Why are we stopping them?
And so I also think that part of this led to, well, wait a second, we're so sometimes focused on our teacher shortages that we forget one of the reasons is because enrollment in educator preparation providers, colleges and universities has been down nationally over the last decade. So they need us just as much as we need them. And so recognizing that to our advantage is some of the work that we did. And I'm happy to speak more to that.
Kevin: So how does it work with your vision? And, by the way, you actually were principally involved in making sure that this teacher apprenticeship idea had traction and federal validation through the U.S. Department of Labor. But this idea of how you fund the apprenticeship process for potential teachers and then make sure that they get certified, walk us through how that works.
David: Sure. So first things first is we work with a state or a district to identify what are the shortage areas that you have. Are we talking science, special ed, ESL? We want to get a good idea from there. And then specifically, if we're working with a district, let's start identifying the talent that's in place that would make an excellent teacher if given the chance. The reason that's important is we want to look at those folks' educational backgrounds to understand are we going to need to create one-year, two-year, or four-year pathways. Meaning, do you actually have a lot of people who already have a bachelor's, but it's just not in education? Do they have an associate's? Or do they have nothing at all?
And so because of that information, we then work with what we say is the CF No, and turn him or her into a CF Yes, by helping them understand and braid different funding sources that can be used. So right now, we strongly encourage people to use their ESSER Funds for one more year while we have them, but also your Title II, your Title III, your IDA, your Perkins V, your state general funds. All of these funds can be braided together to ultimately we work with procurement to launch an RFP. And we get these universities to bid against each other to say, in increments we usually recommend $100,000, for $100,000, how many teachers can you produce in the shortage areas that the state or district has?
And so that is where we really get to leverage a state or district's economies of scale because, on average, we've been able to get the cost down to just under $10,000 per degree, tuition, books, fees, etc. If I gave $10,000 to you right now, or to my mom, and they were to go down to the local university, they might tell you you're missing a few tens of thousands of dollars on that. But when I'm able to actually offer a university, here's 50 people, 60 people, 500 people at $10,000 per person, well, that's a different story now. And we're also, again, talking about people like my mom, or paraprofessionals, or cafeteria workers, you name it, who are not going to go to you in the first place because they couldn't afford it.
So I'm not actually robbing Peter to pay Paul. I'm giving you students that are bonus money. You never would have got it to begin with. And because of that work and aspects of it, that's what led us then to working with the U.S. Department of Labor to get the occupation of a teacher approved for registered apprenticeship.
Kevin: And how are things going with this, because part of this process that you must be going through in your organization is, one, letting people know what's possible. Letting them know it's there because a lot of I'm sure school district leaders aren't aware of that. And then having them sort of trust the process and the guide that you would provide, and getting them from point A to point B. And you know having worked in school administration for some years, if you come to many school leaders with something new, then they're thinking, "What is the lightest lift to make a good idea happen?" Because they just don't have the bandwidth to carry the ball for a number of new things.
David: Oh, that's right. So, Kevin, this is one where I have done a lot of self-reflection and analysis. So two things. One, I always say we'd like to take the Kevin Costner approach, and it's not "Yellowstone," but "Field of Dreams." If you build it, they will come.
Kevin: Oh, okay.
David: And so, to your point, people can be hesitant to try something that's new, even when I'm talking about moving away from tuition reimbursement to tuition investment.
Kevin: Right.
David: I think we've been . . . Where the analysis comes from is, look, a year and a half ago, when I launched this, not only was I trying to build brand awareness, but also concept awareness. No one knew what a registered apprenticeship was. We had, in my past role as Chief of Human Capital at the Tennessee Department of Ed, created it, but no one really knew. But fortunately, we were blessed to have the Secretary of Education use his bully pulpit and talk about it in March and April of last year. And we just kept hitting the pavement, and eventually momentum I would say took over and we were able to get results.
And we also built . . . we adapted on the fly too. And specifically one of those was creating the national registered apprenticeship and teaching network, which is a free professional learning community for states. We launched last August with seven states. And as of today, September 6, I'm proud to say we now serve over half the country. We just hit our 25th state, plus we have D.C. So we are thrilled by that, in one year getting 25 states now, and it's a chance for them to learn from one another. And that's one of the big lessons that I've taken away from my work at a district and a state level. Districts listen to districts, states listen to states. And so we need to bring folks together, and we also run a similar network for school districts as well.
Kevin: Can these apprenticeship programs in the way you described and the way you're actually making it work district by district, state by state, can they help alleviate the teacher shortage?
David: I think it's a tool in the toolkit, right? I mean, the best recruitment strategy is having a better retention strategy. Let me first say that and we need to focus on that. Our organization is playing our part. Our part is to say, "Hey, if we remove financial barriers, can we get more people into this occupation?" And again, I want to be very clear, we're not talking about lowering the bar in any way. We're lowering the financial barriers, and if anything, raising the bar, because it's also a way by leveraging these competitive grants. And in a registered apprenticeship, when a state or district serves as the sponsor, they can set the conditions. So they can say, "We're only going to approve programs or we're only going to award funding to those who are training people in the science of reading, or high-quality instructional materials."
We've seen a focus on . . . Every partner we've worked with, I'm proud to say, has said, "We want to see an increase in educator diversity." So districts you have to select individuals who are more diverse than your current teacher workforce. So there's different ways that can be customized to the values and priorities of a state or district. And I think that's really, really exciting.
And we're also talking about tapping into funding that for 85 years was never allowed to be tapped into. This is the money that was used to train people to become plumbers, electricians, IT, culinary arts. And one very nice thing about this funding is the flexibility because it can be used for wraparound supports as well. Meaning, it can pay for someone's childcare when they're going to their classes at night. It can be used to pay for a gas card to get to your courses. Or we even had a situation where someone was able to get their car repaired that was an apprentice. And so these allowable uses that are not allowed of education dollars, that can also help when you're talking about a full circle approach to an aspiring educator.
Kevin: No. And that makes a huge difference. Some of those additional benefits are huge. So a couple of final questions. This is what I really want to know, David. One is, what steps should an aspiring educator take if they would like to avail themselves and be become a part of this apprenticeship process?
David: Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing is going to your local . . . I mean, you might actually want to start with your principal and see what they have to offer and say to this and see what opportunities. But what we really need to do is actually create a much more user-design-friendly way, because unfortunately I don't have a great answer to that question. It's a great question. But most people who are interested in becoming a teacher, it's like, "Where do I begin?" And if you go to a state's website, you go to a school district's website, it can be very overwhelming. It can be very confusing. It can be a maze.
And so what I think the best examples that I have seen, thus far, are cases where it's actually just provide your information. And we need states and districts to have that one-on-one follow-up and hold their hand and walk them through these processes about what options are available to you because everyone's situation is different.
Kevin: Yeah. And the companion question is, how can administrators bring this program to their district?
David: Yeah. Oh, I love that question. So this one, I have a better answer for, one that's actually tangible. And so if I am a principal right now, my first question that I'd be thinking is, okay, if I even have one teacher vacancy, I have likely budgeted that at, even if it's the lowest pay, $45,000 per year type of situation, with fringe benefits, we're now talking $55,000 to $60,000. So if I have a substitute teacher filling in right now costing me $25,000 to $30,000, there's potentially a $30,000 differential. Where is that $30,000 going? I believe that $30,000 can be broken into two $15,000 payments to two paraprofessionals to help them get their degrees. That is what I would be thinking as a principal is, "What money do I have right now?"
Kevin: I see.
David: And I'd start with any long-term subs you have. What am I doing to ensure that a year from today I am not in the same position? That's aside from looking at your Title II, Title III, IDA, Perkins, all those funding sources. But that is where I'd start if I'm a school principal, is identifying who are the people that would make an excellent teacher if given the chance, and where can I get the money? And first, look at where you have any long-term subs in. That differential, where is that money going, that should be used for the tuition investment for people you have in your school community.
Kevin: And, of course, they can also get more information reaching out to your organization.
David: Oh, absolutely. We're happy to help and talk with anybody. That's what I get to feel like Oprah whenever I talk to someone. I don't get to give away a car, but we're trying to give away degrees. But it's really about . . . We always know that talent is equally distributed, opportunity is not. And so our organization, we shared our mission earlier, we really believe that we can play a role in helping folks think differently. And frankly, if we are successful, we are actually putting ourselves out of business. And that's the dream one day so that every child has not only the teacher they need but deserve.
Kevin: David Donaldson for the National Center for Grow Your Own. You're doing great work, and appreciate you joining us on "What I Want to Know."
David: Thanks for having me, Kevin. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.
Kevin: Thanks for listening to "What I Want to Know." Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education. And write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using #WIWTK on social media. That's #WIWTK.
For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I'm your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining "What I Want to Know."
Meet David
David Donaldson is the founder and managing partner of the National Center for Grow Your Own (NCGYO), a nonprofit organization working to expand the teaching workforce.
David was the lead author on the approved application by the U.S. Department of Labor to federally recognize the “K–12 teacher” and “K–12 principal” occupations as eligible for registered apprenticeship.
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What I Want to Know
In this podcast, you will hear from leaders in education as we talk through learning solutions for homeschool, online school, education pathways, and topics tailored specifically to online students and parents.
