Transcript
Kevin: In its report titled “Overlooked and Underserved,” the Urban Institute found that high sustained levels of immigration over the course of the past three decades have had a significant impact on the needs of students in our nation's schools. What are the needs of immigrant and limited English students in our schools today? What is the value of competency-based learning in their instruction? And how can teachers support English language development for multilingual learners? This is What I Want to Know. And today, I'm joined by Donna Neary to find out.
Kevin: Donna Neary is an English teacher and new language specialist at a high school in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Her school has a significant population of diverse, multilingual students. Donna's teaching experience and research interests focus on immigrant-origin students and multi-language instruction, as well as history. She joins us today to discuss how monolingual educators can effectively support English acquisition for multilingual students. Donna, welcome to the show.
Donna: Thank you so much, Kevin. I'm excited to have this conversation.
Kevin: Now, you're a teacher, and you're a new language specialist, but it all began somewhere. As you know, I like to ask my guests how they got to where they are. And the obvious question for a lot of teachers is: Did you always know you wanted to be a teacher? And what sparked that desire to be in front of the classroom and help nurture the learning process for our young?
Donna: Actually, I made a distinct decision when I went to school as an undergraduate studying history that I would not be a teacher. I didn't want to be in a classroom. And looking back, I think because I had had lots of experiences as a child visiting historic places, I devoured the biographies of all the famous people in the library. So, my sense of history was that it's out there somewhere in the world around us, and I thought the classroom was not going to be a good fit for me. So, I actively moved away from education. What's interesting is my work as a public historian — I did research and writing and would go into communities and really uncover, discover their history — was really some form of education. I think public history is public education in so many ways because of the work that I would do: I would write reports or give presentations, talk with people about what was happening in their community, lead tours. So, I was really educating people from a different arena, sort of, out in the public.
And many people will remember in about 2008, 2009, the economy shifted quite a bit, and I was working in a historical society, and the budgets were dramatically cut. And so, I was put into a position of really figuring out, what am I going to do next? And my first thought was, I think I can substitute teach because I've got the degrees, so let me just see if I can get a job. And when I went into the school, oddly, I lived in the town at the time where I had grown up and completed high school. The high school I attended was posting for a substitute, and I said, "Well, this could be fun. Let me go back to high school." And ultimately, it was a fantastic decision because the principal there was so supportive. He would come in my room, and at the end of the week he said, "Come and see me." So, I went in, and I thought, “Oh goodness, they're not going to have me back anymore.” He goes, "You're really good at this. I think you need to sort of think about teaching as your next move."
Kevin: It's really interesting, because many teachers make that decision in college, obviously, and you were the exact opposite. I want to talk more about that. But first, because I consider myself sort of a knockoff historian: I love history; I minored in it at college, and I read biographies. I consider myself a real, real student of history. But as you know, today is a different world for historians. How would you define historians generally and compare that to where we are today? Because to me, it seems like we're entering a new phase of what history means and how history is used and how history is taught, even to our young.
Donna: It's all about perspective. I was very fortunate I got a grant from the National Geographic Society to create a curriculum on migration, and it's all about perspective. So, the person whose story we're telling, their perspective shows where they're coming from, what they're concerned about, what system they're operating in, where the power structure is, what facts and figures are important in the conversation. And I think historians are anyone who ... As you said, you've got a love of history. We are all our own historians. There's no reason to fear the facts of the past.
So, people lived; they died; decisions were made; governments happened. There are facts about the world around us. It's only the perspective and who's writing the history that some people feel like that makes it scary, or people's voices that have not been heard are now being heard. "Wait a minute; we've not heard this story before. Can that be the truth?" So, I hope we get to a place where we can respect and appreciate the past and the lives of everyone who's been before us and living now, but also really understand that facts can't hurt us; the past can't injure us. It informs us and allows us to make decisions about things in the future to improve the lives of people around us. And I think that's maybe a piece that's missing right now. And certain histories are being even more marginalized and moved to the side and maybe squashed down.
And it's so unfortunate, and it perpetuates the problems and issues of our society today. We have to hear and have to read about the facts of the past. And I think the perspective, the author, the writer, this is such an old thing to say, but the victor writes the history.
Kevin: Yes.
Donna: So, the system who's in charge writes the history, and when there's a shift in systems and people, different voices start elevating and coming up — that's really uncomfortable. Change is hard for people. Change is uncomfortable, and shifts in power base are incredibly difficult. People don't want to give up their power.
Kevin: I love the way you describe the facts associated with history, that we don't need to be afraid of the facts. And I do feel that many people today, when they think about history, and this feeds into our culture of wars that we're in the midst of, that our political leaders are engaged in, and parents are swept up around some of these issues. But it's okay, as you said, to have that perspective. But sometimes it feels as if people don't want to acknowledge the facts that create various perspectives.
So, for instance, I've had teachers say to me, young teachers, that they don't because they abhor the notion of slavery or the Holocaust, they don't even want to mention slavery or discuss the Holocaust in their classroom, or because they have issues with, let's say, a certain religion. It could be Islam, where they don't want to mention the Islamic Empire centuries ago, or they don't want to refer to Dr. Martin Luther King as Reverend King because they don't want to promote Christianity. There really are these varying interpretations of applying today's sentiment to yesterday's set of history. When you talk with young teachers who are caught up in some of these things, how do you socialize these kinds of issues?
Donna: I'm a firm believer, I'm a supporter of public education, all education, whatever meets the needs of your child, you as your family and your parents should pursue that for your child. But the idea that ignoring, as you've identified, the Holocaust, enslavement of human beings around the world, to ignore that and then to be in a classroom where you have children of color sitting in the chairs, and you're the teacher, or you have bullying or hate crimes or whatever sort of happens in the universe, it's impossible to educate your students without them having some core context of what's happened in the past. And so, if in communities we've had such sad and scary and horrible attacks on religious groups — many Jewish synagogues have been attacked in recent years — students may not understand why that's happening if they do not have a clear context. And the Holocaust is certainly the largest example of mass murder and just egregious, horrible views of people and actions against people.
Kevin: Yes.
Donna: But there are smaller microaggressions and transgressions in communities against Muslims. In some communities, the hijab or a head covering is seen as a negative. Things that are at the core of a culture are viewed as scary or dangerous or “anti” something. Young people today have got to understand that past in that context, or those sorts of behaviors can't ... it's difficult for kids to really judge when somebody does an action that is against someone for their religion or the color of their skin without some context of what's happened in the past. So, we have to really understand why people target other people and why we need to develop as a community in terms of tolerance and acceptance, so we can live together and appreciate and respect differences instead of attacking people for their differences.
Kevin: Nowhere are we seeing more challenges than with our immigrant community. People talk about English as a second language, but there's this notion of English as a new language. And you have actually been involved in working with a number of immigrant students who face some of the challenges related to our previous conversations around history. They clearly are at the center of one of the core issues of discontent here in this country, when people talk about building walls and shutting down borders and should we even educate these kids? Or what is the right way to allow new people into this country? And what is the best way to do that and preserve our own culture, identity? But from an educator's perspective, it is clear that students who come from other countries are entitled to a free and public education in this country. And in your community in Chattanooga, it is one of those communities that has received a fair number of immigrant students. So, talk about that work and how it impacts some of the things we've already been discussing.
Donna: Yes, and I started teaching in Louisville, Kentucky, and had a large population of resettled immigrants. And so, some communities have resettled immigrants that are brought to certain communities. Actually, Louisville's one of the largest in the United States. In Chattanooga, it's a little bit different that many of those people who are coming to Chattanooga aren't classified as refugees, but they're coming through their own means to school. And I teach what's called English New Language, and I know many teachers and others will say, "Wait a minute, I thought it used to be ESL. And then it was ESOL and the Alphabet Soup." And I think our district, the Hamilton County schools, chose English New Language because of what we know and what we're learning about our students: Many of them come with two languages, maybe three languages. And English isn't their second language; it's just another language.
So, I'm a social studies teacher, and I'm also a language teacher, but I teach social studies through the English language. So, it really melds. When we talk about world history and geography, what vocabulary are we going to talk about? What are we going to really build? We have to build content. Most of these students have never studied United States history or world history in a formal way. Some of them have significantly interrupted formal education. They've not had the benefit of formal education past maybe second or third grade in some ways, and now they're coming to high school. I'm a high school teacher. And so, there is a large population; there's a large enrollment. I think we have, about 45,000 students enrolled in the public schools in Hamilton County, and about 11% of them are identified as English new learners. So, we need to learn how to speak Spanish or at least be able to communicate in a way that's respectful and can connect to our students.
And so, the district listened and is supporting us. So, I'm enrolled in Spanish for educators, and I'm so encouraged and excited. I had picked up a little bit just from working in class with students and trying on my own. So, my Spanish skills, I'm still entering, emerging. But what's been so fascinating about that is, when students come from somewhere, migrate or immigrate or come from another place, there's always this sense of, "Do I belong here?"
Kevin: Yes.
Donna: And, "How does this work? The food, everything's different." And the language, and many of your teachers look like me. So, 80% of teachers in the United States look like me, and a vast proportion of us speak only English. And so, students have responded so positively. I think, just shared vulnerability. It's sort of like, "Okay, guys, I have a big announcement. I'm going to be learning Spanish." And the whole class erupted in cheers. It was —
Kevin: Oh, wow. That's cool.
Donna: It was really sweet. It was so exciting. And then they started quizzing me. And now in class they'll say, "Oh, don't help her." Like what? And so, they'll ... I'm the student. And often when you're learning a language, you'll say something wrong, and it's a completely different word. And they're so generous. Somebody will tug at me and go, "Mrs. Neary, this is what you should be saying." And so, it's been really fun, and it's really opened up my lines of communication with students because they see that I'm trying.
They know they're learning English, and it's hard. I say in my class every time, "This is difficult. English is crazy." And so, their sense of shared struggle, because I'm learning a language, has really enhanced many of the relationships. I have one student, Katerina, who really, I never heard her speak. She's really reluctant to speak. And once she learned that I was learning, trying to acquire Spanish, she's now one of the most helpful students in the class. She's just opened up; she's talking in class because I think we have something in common. She just looked at me like, "Wow, okay, I get it. You respect us and our language." And I won't speak for her, but it really just clicked. The two of us now speak frequently. She greets me every morning. She asks more questions; she's just more verbal. And I feel like that is directly related to my sense of vulnerability and really learning: I have to know this to do a better job for you guys.
Kevin: I think that's terrific because lifelong learning at all levels, no matter what age, is important. And it really touches on the point I was going to raise with you, Donna, and that is that old expression, "Kids don't care what you know unless they know you care." Without knowing their language, when they first enter your classroom, how are you able to build trust? Now, it looks like just the mere fact that you're trying to meet them halfway has expanded that trust quotient by leaps and bounds. But as you bring all these different kids together, so many different languages, cultures, countries in the middle of, you're in Tennessee, and there's a lot of political views about some of this stuff, not just there, but all over the country. What are some of the things — and I'm thinking about other teachers who may be listening to the show — what are the steps that you go through, putting your own learning journey aside right now, but what are the steps you take to try to build that trust and get kids engaged?
Donna: The first thing we do, maybe the first five, six days of school, is really learn about the students. And the first thing I say is, "I speak English, and you speak Spanish. And maybe in my language and maybe something else." And so, the academic language we're getting to is English, but the focus is on the student, their culture, valuing their language and really building a base that I trust, that the language will come, that we will work together. We do a series of activities that are nonverbal. We'll sort of work together just to engage and move together and have little activities where you're not allowed to talk. Well, it's very intentional because then nobody's really under the stress of talking. Like little games: hand this one to this person. You can't talk, can't help each other. Looking at the student as a whole person and understanding: you have a family; you've got a language; you've got all of this to protect and preserve, and that's who you are.
English is a tool. It's a tool to get you a high school diploma. It's a tool to get a job. It's a tool to get your driver's license. And I think when I put it in that way, it says love, respect. I love and respect your family and your culture. And I'm so excited that you have all this other knowledge, skills and dispositions. This is a kind of competency-based education. What are you bringing to the learning? Well, I've never lived on a farm before. I've never lived on a mountain. There are so many things that they bring to it, but we have to get the English together because that's the tool that's going to propel you to where you're hoping to be or what you've expressed you want. You want an education in the United States; it's going to be in English. So, how do we get you there? We're still going to keep and carry all these things you've brought with you, and we're going to value and we're going to use that in class.
And I think looking at it in terms of, you're not being asked to give anything away or move away from anything, but just add one more skill. It's a skill. Language is a skill and a disposition. So, I think that's how we start. Every single day in my classroom, we do reading, writing, speaking, and listening. Every day something, everybody's going to talk, everybody's going, don't try to hide behind your friend, because yes, you're going to speak. And one thing that we do — when you have such large classes, it's difficult to talk to one student or personalize. If you did the math, you just have very little time. And so, what I've focused on, especially this academic year, is group work. We run a crew.
And so, that's how I describe it to the kids now. "You're on this crew. Who's the captain, who's this, who's that?" They are activated and they work because it's familiar. They understand. And then, I'm out of it. I have the ability to go group to group and really work with students and see who needs a little extra support. Sometimes kids don't want to be in a group, and they want to work solo, but that's how life works. You’ve got to work with a group. And so, I've really learned about myself as a teacher, and parents have really helped me understand too, sort of how to work in more of a communal way. As Americans, we're so individual in how we approach things. And other cultures have such a communal sense. And I've worked hard to integrate that into my teaching. And I'm seeing just real shifts and change and students being accountable to one another, being accountable.
Sometimes your teacher wants you to hand something in; that's not very exciting. But if your partner or somebody who's your peer is counting on you, that's a different level of responsibility, I think. And I think that's okay. That's the way life is. And so, working with English new learners, as Hamilton County calls our students, has shifted and changed the way that I teach and the way that I regard instruction. So, it's been all positive, I would say.
Kevin: Well, and that leads me to my last question, and it centers around this notion of community. You eloquently describe how you bring these new students, new residents, immigrants into the learning community. But this is what I really want to know. How do you integrate those new students into a learning community that's inclusive of those that have been there? Because that's where some of the tension also exists, particularly among adults. So, how do you bring it all together?
Donna: That is a huge issue that's been discussed in our district. Actually, the district has just completed an equity study with that exact question: How do we welcome new people? And again, this is the sense of belonging that so many educators now are thinking about. The people who have been here all along, belong. And then the new people need to have a sense of belonging. And it can create conflict, because of things we talked about earlier in the conversation. But what our school district is really looking at is bringing kids together, where they're looking at coming at it at the student level, sort of like groups or letting them say, "We're going to start doing some conversations with students, all the students at the schools and hearing: What is your sense of belonging? What do you think about new people coming into our community?"
These will be hard conversations. They might be scary. They might also, as you said, sort of like the younger teacher, be people that don't want to talk about these topics. Sometimes people just want to avoid and not talk about the topics and hope it happens. But in order for us to have, in terms of public education — my view, this is not original — we are looking at developing activated citizens of the United States. We are citizens of the world, and how do we create this informed electorate if we don't have these hard conversations and we don't teach people that there are so many differences in the world, and that's a good thing.
So, the sheer value of the people who are being educated in schools all over the United States is really the lead in the story. So, how do we then integrate that information into systems as they develop so people feel welcome? And I think that's really what's been so exciting about working in Chattanooga and at Hamilton County Schools. There has been a lot of new research, and we have something called Opportunity 2030. It's a new initiative to focus on the whole child and integrate all the kids that come to our school so everybody feels welcome. And ultimately, everybody has an education that prepares them for what's next in their life.
Kevin: Yeah, well said. Donna Neary, I really appreciate the work you're doing, and thank you so much for joining us on What I Want to Know.
Donna: Thank you so much.
Kevin: Thanks for listening to What I Want to Know. Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education. And write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using #WIWTK on social media. That's #WIWTK. For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I'm your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining What I Want to Know.
Meet Donna
Donna Neary is an English as a New Language specialist at a Title I high school in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with a significant population of diverse, multilingual students.
Donna's teaching experience and research interests focus on immigrant-origin students, multi-language instruction, and history.
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What I Want to Know
In this podcast, you will hear from leaders in education as we talk through learning solutions for homeschool, online school, education pathways, and topics tailored specifically to online students and parents.
