Transcript
Kevin: According to a recent parent survey, 70% of parents want better sex education for their kids and believe it should be mandatory in schools. Teaching our children about sex can be difficult and controversial, leaving many parents and educators struggling to navigate the topic. What should sex education look like in the classroom? How can parents tackle this complicated topic at home? And how can sex education keep our children safe? This is "What I Want to Know," and today I am joined by Christine Soyong, Harley to find out.
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Christine: If you want to protect your child from child abuse, sexual child abuse, the best thing for you to do is to help them know what their body parts are, what their genitalia is called, how to recognize an uncomfortable situation, who to ask for help, right? I mean, I talked with my children from the time they were 2 who was allowed to touch their private parts and under what circumstances, and making sure that they recognize that people should ask for permission in doing so, and that they had the right to say no.
Kevin: According to a recent parent survey, 70% of parents want better sex education for their kids and believe it should be mandatory in schools. Teaching our children about sex can be difficult and controversial, leaving many parents and educators struggling to navigate the topic. What should sex education look like in the classroom? How can parents tackle this complicated topic at home? And how can sex education keep our children safe? This is "What I Want to Know," and today I am joined by Christine Soyong, Harley to find out.
Christine Soyong Harley is the President and CEO of Sex Ed for Social Change, an organization that has served as a leading national voice for sex education since 1964. Since joining the organization in 2019, Christine has led the focus on the benefits of comprehensive sex education to prevent child abuse and sexual violence, and to advance education on consent, gender justice, and affirmation of LGBTQ+ communities. She joins us today to discuss how sex education can keep our students safe.
Christine, welcome to the show. Christine Soyong Harley, welcome to "What I Want to Know," and I'm really excited to have you on and look forward to our conversation.
Christine: Great. Thank you so much for having me, Kevin.
Kevin: So you are involved with your organization. Sex education is an important topic. But how did you settle on this career path? I really want to understand the background, your background, which led you to this work.
Christine: So I am the President and CEO of SIECUS, Sex Ed for Social Change. It is a more than 50-year-old organization that was founded in 1964 by Dr. Mary Calderone, who formerly had been a medical director at Planned Parenthood and was seeing a number of patients that didn't know anything about their sexual health, and realized if they had more information and knowledge about their reproductive health, their sexual health, they would actually need less services or would have more information about how to manage their own healthcare. And so she started SIECUS, formerly known as the Sexuality Information Education Council of the United States, it's a very 1964 name, you know, in order to help provide fact-based, accurate, shame-free education.
So I ended up at SIECUS in sort of a roundabout way. But I think that all of us can recognize in hindsight how much our lives would have been different, how much we would have navigated our relationships, our sexuality, romantic relationships, our sexual health differently had we had sex education and information that allowed us to make informed decisions.
And so actually I came to SIECUS as an interim ED as they were going through the process of finding a new leader. They were looking for someone who could bring an intersectional perspective into sex education and sexual health. They were looking to really focus on the policy advocacy work that we wanted to do as an organization. And the more I thought about how different the world would be if everyone had fact-based, medically accurate sex education, the more I realized that there was actually a contribution that I could make to this conversation that was very different.
When I got to SIECUS, we were in the midst of the Supreme Court nomination process for Brett Kavanaugh. And as you know, that was when the Me Too movement was happening. We were talking about sexual assault and violence, consent, the privilege of male individuals not having to navigate sexual safety in the same way that female candidates do.
And I realized, right, this is because of the lack of sex education that folks have. We are not navigating our relationships in a way that is respecting and affirming all of the people who we do interact with and who we may be engaging in any kind of relationship with. And it really struck me how much we need to have a different conversation about sex education, that's not just about teen pregnancy prevention, but the universal goal of respecting each other's humanity, individuality, and learning how to navigate that with deeper affirmation and respect for one another.
Kevin: What does SIECUS do day in and day out to promote this notion of, as you describe, sexual health? I'm struck by that term because oftentimes when people talk about sex education or, you know, sex education in a classroom or an individual's sexuality, you don't hear the term "sexual health." And to me, that just connotes so many other things that are important. Talk about that because I think that's really an important reference point.
Christine: Yes. I think sexual health at the base of it is understanding our own bodies, our own sexuality, our own reproductive healthcare, but also navigating that in relationship to one another. We're not just talking about sexual activity, but really understanding that there's a partnership, there's a relationship that each of us is navigating with one another. And sexual health then becomes knowing about our bodies, knowing how to access healthcare for our bodies, and that is irrespective of sex . . .
Kevin: Yes.
Christine: . . . as much as it is recognizing that we can have information that allows us to navigate our sexual health, our reproductive health, our bodies with information that is not shame-based and enabling us to then make the right decisions for ourselves about how we want to manage our own healthcare.
Kevin: You know, you mentioned the word "shame," which I was going to go there. I have found that, and I'd like your opinion on this, from a sort of American cultural point of view, this notion of shame associated with one's sexuality or sexual health, there seems to be more of a link than there should be.
Christine: Oh, that's absolutely the case. And it's really unfortunate. You know, I think that there's such a distinction between sexual health and sexual knowledge and sort of the values and the behaviors that people then make with that information.
Kevin: Yes.
Christine: What we actually do know is that when you provide young people with accurate information that helps them to navigate safer sex practices, making decisions about sexual partners, navigating their own decision-making about whether or not to engage in sexual activity freely and without shame, they do a better job of navigating and making those decisions soundly for themselves. When you instead try to place a value around abstinence and around avoiding sexual activity, you're actually setting folks up to navigate their sexual decision-making and sexual health very poorly, because they don't actually have the information to make the right choices for themselves. They're feeling a lot of pressure about whether or not to engage. They don't know how to engage properly. They don't know how to engage in safer sex properly. And so then you end up having a lot of dystopic reactions to sexual health.
And I think that we have seen instances of people who are engaging in very poor behavior with one another and for themselves because they don't have the information and they don't know how to navigate these choices without feeling like there's something wrong and dirty about what they're doing. But actually, reproduction, sexuality, sexual healthcare, sexual practices is a healthy, natural part of being a human being that we all should be able to engage in with pleasure, with joy, with respect for one another to have a healthy and dynamic lifestyle and quality of living.
Kevin: Well, you're absolutely right. The challenge is now there are so many things that are impacting that reality as you just articulated. And it leads me to this question about our schools. As you know, we live in a tension-filled time.
Christine: Yes.
Kevin: Many believe, and I'm one of them, that we're in the middle of a cultural war in a lot of ways in terms of, you know, people's beliefs are so strongly held to the point where if someone has a different belief, they're viewed as the enemy or hostile to, you know, one's own existence. And, you know, I've always been a big advocate for parent choice and parents' rights in schools. But some in that movement have latched onto this issue of sex education in school. Let's talk about the idea, the notion of socializing discussions around sexual health, you know, sexuality in school. A recent parent survey said that 70% of parents feel it should be mandatory in schools. And yet at many school board meetings around the country, people are ready to go up in arms and fight against it. So talk a little bit about why it's important and how we address some of the social and cultural battles around this issue.
Christine: Yeah. And it's really unfortunate because the vast majority of parents and adults do believe that sex education should be taught in schools. And almost every time you speak to a parent or adult, they do want their kids to have better information, better sex education than they've received as young people. I know many folks who are quite proud of, you know, being the ones that were the peers that were teaching their friends how to navigate sex education when there was a gap in the school system.
There is, however, a very well-funded vocal minority that is being galvanized by hate-based activists to take on this framework of parental rights, which I think is just such a devious strategy because, in fact, what they're saying is there is a particular kind of student that can be cared for and affirmed in this school. And if you don't fall within this identity framework, there is something wrong with who you are. And we are punishing schools that are creating inclusive programs that create an accepting and affirming and safer environment for all young people.
What we do know is that when you teach classes, sex education that is inclusive of race, gender, and sexual identities and across those spectrums, you are creating a safer school environment for all young people because what you are teaching young people is that it's okay to be yourself. It's okay to be different. And we can all navigate this human experience acknowledging each other's differences in uniqueness and hold that as sound, as part of the diversity of our society. But when you . . .
Kevin: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this because I think you're right. And I'm sorry to cut you off, Christine. But, you know, that sort of group aside that, you know, has these strong views and, you know, that are contrary to certain types of people or what have you, what about those folks that feel that when it comes to sex education, it's the role of the parents and they don't feel like it should even be in the schools? I mean, and I'm not talking about the extremists. And also, you know, there are folks who for religious reasons. So talk a little bit about that, because I know there's the extreme, there are extremes. But I also think that there is another group that has legitimate views about the role of parenting . . .
Christine: Sure.
Kevin: . . . their religious or philosophical beliefs. I want to make sure we address that as well. And again, I didn't mean to cut you off. But I think it's important to talk about that.
Christine: No, and, you know, and I agree. I think parents absolutely have a role to play in helping their young people navigate this information and how they want to approach themselves and navigate their own choices and behaviors. I think though there is a distinction between information and fact-based knowledge about our biology, our reproduction, our bodies, navigating healthy relationships, understanding consent practices, and these sorts of things, and then the question of values and then how you take that information and base your own choices and behavior off of that. You know, sex education includes lessons on consent and how to navigate consent and why consent may be the right choice for somebody. What it doesn't do is say that's the only choice and the only way that you can behave.
I certainly think that parents should help their young people navigate choices and to set standards for their young people around what the behavioral expectations or how their family may make religious-based or cultural-based decisions around sexual health. But, you know, at the end of the day, parents do I think mostly want their kids to like find somebody to love and to be in a healthy relationship with. And so having this information, whether they just choose to use it to navigate choices at age 17 or at age 25, right, like this is all information that's going to be helpful for a young person who is eventually going to be in a romantic relationship with somebody. And you're hoping that they have the right knowledge and tools and facts to do that to the best of their ability in a way that is going to make the most sense for them.
So, yes, absolutely parents have a role to play. But what they don't have the ability to do is to force schools to insert a value-based or misinformation strategy to force young people to make choices that may fall outside of the decision-making of other families and parents. And that's part of the problem with this parental rights movement.
Kevin: Well, and I get that. How does it look in the classroom? I mean, you know, some schools still show the old sex education videos . . .
Christine: That's right.
Kevin: . . . from when the time your organization was founded.
Christine: That's what I received.
Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been to schools all over the world. And in Europe, they're clearly more comfortable with talking about this issue. And I think many folks in this country, particularly some of the ones you just alluded to would recoil at some of the videos there. But there's a lot more healthy conversation around, you know, sexual health and one's sexuality in some of those schools. If you sit in on some of those classes there, the students are engaging and, you know, it isn't just like a lot of joking around. They really are asking questions, trying to understand things to help guide their own decision-making process along these lines. So talk about what it should look like in the classroom, because, again, some schools still use, you know, the older videos because they, frankly, Christine, they're paralyzed because of the politics around this.
Christine: They're paralyzed by the politics. They're paralyzed because there are no national standards. There is still ample funding going to schools to teach abstinence-only education. And I also want to say that when we talk about abstinence-only education, a lot of times what they're doing is they're reinforcing gender binaries and rape culture, right? Like it's girls are dirty. They are as valuable as a piece of chewed-up gum or spit in a cup if they have premarital sex that's not in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. And I don't think that parents actually want that to happen. And I do think that our society's approach to sex education really stems from this puritan origin story that we have, you know, where folks are very uncomfortable with the idea of our bodies and of sexuality and create this kind of discomfort.
You know, talking about parents, parents do have a role to talk to their kids, starting from very young, right? Like making sure that their toddlers know what to call their genitalia and using the appropriate terms. And when you've engaged in that practice with the very young children, it helps to normalize these conversations both for you as a parent and for the child. And that opens up a door to having honest, age-appropriate, gentle conversations with your kids. That sets a different framework from when we're hiding and we're calling genitalia funny names and, you know, and being fearful around it. That invokes a message to our children that there's something wrong with their bodies. And they don't have a place to navigate it because they're already getting the message from their parents that it's not okay to ask those questions of them.
And so that's kind of the culture shift that we're trying to encourage both schools and families to take. In the classroom, you can have very frank and clear conversations about biology and reproduction in a way that's not gross and icky. And I also want to say that in no place is a school teaching about sexual activity, right? It's really teaching the skills that help people navigate these kinds of issues. And so doing so factually, without shame, without weirdness shifts the conversation and allows young people to then ask those kinds of questions.
When I talk to sex educators, sometimes they'll create like a privacy box you can drop questions in, and then, you know, which allows for the students to ask the kinds of questions that they want to ask. But then when the teacher is also engaging in those questions in front of the classroom, frankly and clearly, without this angst, right, it creates an openness for the whole class and students to realize it's okay to ask these questions. This is normal for me to have these kinds of questions. And now, I can be more comfortable in either asking more things or navigating this topic with a bit more care for myself and care for the other people that I may be interacting with. And so I think that that's really the shift that we're trying to make in these conversations and how we approach sex education.
Kevin: You had talked about and your organization really champions this, that sex education, particularly in schools, but just generally is an important way to help keep our children safe. And you alluded to some of these things that, you know, some of the puritanical views led to, it leads to repression and leads to aggressive behavior and pent-up behavior that emerges in a violent way. But talk about that connection, that having these conversations, even in classrooms, helps keep children safe, because that kind struck me as something that a lot of people don't really think about because they're so focused on "sexual activity," but they aren't focused on how being knowledgeable about these things can lead to a safer climate for children.
Christine: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it starts from very young. If you want to protect your child from child abuse, sexual child abuse, the best thing for you to do is to help them know what their body parts are, what their genitalia is called, how to recognize an uncomfortable situation, who to ask for help, right? I mean, I talked with my children from the time they were 2 who was allowed to touch their private parts and under what circumstances, and making sure that they recognize that people should ask for permission in doing so, and that they had the right to say no.
It's very basic, right? But what that does is it creates ownership and autonomy over that child's body for themselves. And it gives them the tools to say, something happened that I didn't like. It gives them the language to say, "Somebody touched me in a place that I don't feel comfortable with. And I know who to ask for help, and I know that I can."
That is ground one what you can do to protect your kids. But, you know, as kids get older, we're talking about consent, right? Again, asking permission, asking permission and navigating disagreements and fights with friends. It doesn't even have to be romantic, right? We're teaching our kids it's not okay to hit somebody because they said no to you. It's not okay to touch somebody inappropriately if they told you not to touch them in this way.
That's the base. Those are the building blocks of consent that, you know, it's on the playground, right? We're having those conversations on the playground, but when they're 16 and they've told somebody, "Don't touch me here," or, "I said no," they already have the knowledge and the sense in their body that I can say no with my full chest out, and it is your responsibility to listen to me, right? Rather than feeling like, "Well, I don't know if I can say no. And maybe I can. And well, they didn't listen. So, you know, I'm trying to be a nice person, you know, and I'm not going to put my own autonomy and needs first."
But on the reciprocal, right, it's also teaching, you know, particularly boy children, who historically have been taught that they can just have access to anybody's bodies in any way that they want to, that they have to respect other people as well. It also creates safety. Like I was mentioning, that when you create a classroom that is affirming and inclusive of multiple identities, it helps other kids recognize that difference is okay. And it creates an environment where bullying and harassment is less likely to occur, not just for the LGBTQ child in the classroom, not just for the little girl in the classroom, but for, you know, the socially-awkward kid who really likes science computers or something, right?
It creates a safer environment for all people to be able to be themselves and for that to be a part of a healthy society and in school environment creating greater success for all of these students. We also know that kids that receive sex education are less likely to be sexually assaulted once they get to campus, right, and to college campuses. So you're creating a lifelong building block of safer environments, safer spaces, a more grounded sense of your own body and autonomy that allows you to navigate these dynamics with a lot more skill set to do so safely.
Kevin: So, Christine, this has been very, very helpful. I have one last question. And this is what I really want to know. Let's assume I'm a mid-size school superintendent, where there have been some let's say raunchy jokes and interactions among, you know, the high school students. I have a strong feeling, as superintendent, that we need to step up our approach to sexual education in the school. We need to talk about sexual health. We need to talk about some of the safety things that you alluded to. But I also have a subset of parents who don't want me to have that discussion at all, though I've done my own surveys and most parents do want it. I also have one or two school board members, who are pretty hostile against it. You know, if I come to you as a superintendent and ask your advice on how I begin the process to engage, to move my school district in a different direction, what advice would you give me?
Christine: Well, first of all, I would definitely ask that you approach SIECUS or a similar advocacy organization who would be able to provide the kinds of support to you in navigating your community dynamics. I think it is really important to have open conversation, particularly with the allies in your community that you know want to have affirming, fact-based school environments for their own young people. There are a number of resources that we have on our website and some of our sister websites around navigating school board meetings and preparing for ones, particularly if you know that, you know, a Moms for Liberty type of organization is going to descend on decision-making. I would also be happy to provide a number of facts and information that help push back against the misinformation campaigns that are out there.
But, you know, really I think it's about communities pushing back and fighting for the schools that they want to have. And that's going to require you, you know, finding the parents, finding the teachers, finding the school board members who are rational minded, who want to be fact-based and evidence-based in their education approaches and engaging them so that you are supported by the vast majority of folks who think that this kind of information and approach to teaching young people information is sound and important.
Kevin: All right. Christine Soyong Harley, thank you so much. I've enjoyed the conversation. And I appreciate you joining us on "What I Want to Know."
Christine: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.
Kevin: Thanks for listening to "What I Want to Know." Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education. And write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using #WIWTK on social media. That's # WIWTK.
For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I'm your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining "What I Want to Know."
Meet Christine
Christine Soyong Harley is the president and CEO of Sex Ed for Social Change, an organization that has served as a leading national voice for sex education since 1964.
Since joining the organization in 2019, Christine has led the focus on the benefits of comprehensive sex education to prevent child abuse and sexual violence and to advance education on consent, gender justice, and affirmation of LGBTQ+ communities.
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