Transcript
Kevin: Advancements in artificial intelligence are impacting all areas of life, including education. With applications like ChatGPT dominating headlines, educators are wondering how education should prepare students for a world filled with AI. How are teachers introducing AI in the classroom? What should we do to prepare students for the AI jobs of the future? And what are the ethical implications of AI, both in and out of the classroom? This is What I Want to Know. And today, I'm joined by Jason Hurd to find out.
Kevin: Jason Hurd is an artificial intelligence and computer science teacher at Seckinger High School in Gwinnett County, Georgia, the first school in the nation to be built around artificial intelligence. Jason has taught computer science in middle and high school for 14 years, and was recently nominated Teacher of the Year in this county. Today, he joins us to talk about his own work in AI, as well as Seckinger High School's artificial intelligence program, and how AI will be a central part of our future. Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason: Thank you for having me here.
Kevin: I always love having teachers on the program. There are so many insights as to what led people to become teachers. We're dealing with a teacher shortage, so the first question I want to ask you is, did you always know you wanted to teach?
Jason: Oh, that's such a good question. No, in high school, I spent a lot of time in the band room, so I did originally want to be in music, and then education was where I was drawn to. So, I originally went to college to be a music teacher but then found out from, I'd say, mostly friends, that teachers — they don't make any money. Why do you want to be a teacher? And so that got in my head a little bit, and I ended up changing to a degree and a career in photography. Ended up working in many aspects of the photography industry for the first 15 years of my career after college.
Then, what was I doing in the photo industry, in the corporate world, in studios? I was essentially doing a lot of technical aspects, but I was also managing studios, and I was essentially teaching employees how to be good photographers and how to do portraiture and things like that. And we were doing it all in the business of kids, so it just seemed to all line up. My wife had gotten it: she also works in education, and she had ended up in the education field, and dare I say? I got jealous of what she got to do every day when I was supposed to be the teacher. So it just brought me all back around to the classroom.
Kevin: So let's talk about what drew you to computer science and, ultimately, artificial intelligence.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: You said you were teaching in language arts. Why did you make the shift, or what was it that motivated you to say, "You know what? I think I want to get more into this computer science field"?
Jason: Certainly. I think that has to do with mainly the background. So, growing up in the 80s, early 90s, with all the computers coming onto the scene, I didn't really go in depth into computers and whatnot, but with family and friends and many people that I knew and dear friends of mine going into computers, I've always been fascinated with technology.
So, even while teaching language arts and social studies, I originally began as a special education teacher, and just having the opportunity to use what we call "Ed tech" or "Educational technology" in the classroom, I was using quite a bit of it all the time. And then, our school district decided at one point they wanted to bring back computer science, but with this new spin, with programming and robotics, coding. And my principal called me on spring break and told me about this opportunity, and she said, "You're the first person that came to mind. What do you think?" And I said, "Sign me up. Let's do it."
Kevin: So, a number of school leaders, superintendents, school district leaders around the country listen to the program, and many of them that I've spoken with in my school visits, as you know — you're not going to be surprised to hear this — are a little wary or skittish about how to take on some of these new applications. And there's a fear factor, and there's also a comfort level that many teachers and school leaders have, where they've had some success engaging students in the approach they’ve used for five, 10, 15, 20 years or more, but all of a sudden, this new breed of student is literally requiring more because their interests are bigger when it comes to technology.
Jason: Yeah.
Kevin: And so, one thing I wanted to ask you is, how have you seen the engagement of young people improve by you staying up to date with these advances?
Jason: I would think, just first and foremost, I'd like to take credit for understanding where — So, we call them digital natives.
Kevin: Yes.
Jason: So, they've come up; they're born in the age of technology, and our digital natives nowadays compared to five years ago, six, seven years ago — it's certainly different because of — I would go back to talking about the pace. But engagement-wise, I often say that the educators need to be as stimulating or fast-paced as the students with their — I usually just say the video games, but now, it's with the screens that they're staring at all the time.
Kevin: And when you talk about meeting kids where they are, I was so struck by this unique and forward-looking approach that your school district took with Seckinger High School in Gwinnett County, Georgia. It is so radically different in terms of just the way the school was founded. Talk a little bit about this school and its unique offerings for kids in your county.
Jason: Absolutely. So first and foremost, I would say that Seckinger High School is a regular high school. It's not a magnet school; it's not where you apply to go. We are a standard school cluster where we have three elementary schools and one middle school that feeds our one high school. But the unique part that I really enjoy and that we bring to the playing field, if you would say, is we consider ourselves to be the next generation high school. It's a very college campus feel. We have everything that a regular school would offer, but we are an AI-themed cluster. And so, what that means, what that looks like, is that at every level, from elementary to middle all the way through the high school, we use this analogy — it's better if I use the analogy — we use this analogy where students are either swimming, they're snorkeling or they're scuba diving in AI. So there's always an AI flavor to something.
Now, we have standard classes. You take your standard core classes: there's language arts; there's social studies and history and all of the electives that you can think of, the fine arts, to our career and technical education courses. But all of those are seen and planned infused with what I would consider an AI lens. So, it’s looking at things that normal schools or a regular curriculum already do, but with the lens of how it applies to artificial intelligence.
Kevin: What does that mean? Because there are education purists out there that, when they hear artificial intelligence, first of all, they recoil. And largely, for many, that's out of ignorance. They just know it's some scary new technology.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: And again, it's been around for a while.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: And I think in terms of where some of the old traditional teachers have their mindset. But what does it mean when you infuse the basic three Rs, reading, writing, arithmetic, …
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: ... making sure kids get the basics through an artificial intelligence lens? What does that mean?
Jason: So, first and foremost, I would say that it's really about language, and I have found that many teachers, because we have very traditional teachers that have joined our team …
Kevin: Yes.
Jason: ... but fortunately for us, they're also forward-thinking and want to know and want to learn. So first, I would say it comes with language, and just a basic understanding that a lot of what is already happening with educational standards and what's already happening in the general education classroom, it's simply the same, that it is happening everywhere.
Kevin: Yeah.
Jason: However, it could be the tools that we're using while we're using AI and working. I love to talk about the need to work alongside machines, not for them or against them, but just alongside the machines, because we're already doing it. And having that understanding for those traditionalists that might be out there, or even the forward-thinkers, that you're already doing what's there.
So you say reading, writing, arithmetic. So we have an AI framework that we use that has many topics among it; one of those topics is mathematical reasoning. Well, math classes are, just in general, you're using computational thinking skills; you're critically thinking; you're using mathematical reasoning in any general math class. But giving the students the understanding of how that applies to the tools that they're using in their everyday life, in the business world, whatever they might want to do and whatever interest they have, we are focused on preparing what we call the "AI-ready student," or the "Future-ready student."
Kevin: Yeah.
Jason: So they're going to be prepared. Our goal is to prepare them for the future of work, jobs that aren't created. I believe our kindergartners now, kindergartners anywhere around the country — they'll graduate 2030s, somewhere like that, 2035, something like that. And so, who knows what it's going to look like? Look at what ChatGPT or GPT-3 and now GPT-4 have created just in the last six months and how technology is, week to week to week to week.
So, back to the curriculum piece and how we do that, again, it starts with language, and then just showing teachers, and taking a regular lesson and what we call "upgrading those lessons" in order to put that AI lens on it, to have the students understand that this applies to whatever specific field that they might be interested in, or just the content itself.
Kevin: Yeah. And I want to be clear: I love it. I think this is what we should be doing; this is where we need to go. I think that this idea, as you said, of the stand and deliver — I've said it on many of my shows — the lecture approach doesn't work. I believe in project-based learning, collaboration.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: And the other thing is, this idea of rote memory as a way to get kids to engage in learning is so out of date, and the exciting aspect of what you're doing really lends itself to developing the critical and analytical skills necessary …
Jason: Absolutely.
Kevin: ... that have been lost by kids' disinterest in school, and just figuring out how they can get through a class, so I do think it's great. What are some of the challenges you've faced with developing this curriculum and presenting it to a school district and a set of parents and community leaders that may or may not be as versed in it?
Jason: Well, we're still in development, so this is our inaugural year, and there are many challenges along the way. I would say the biggest challenge is... Well, let me start with the upside.
Kevin: Yes.
Jason: So, the positive side is that everybody is super excited. We have such support from our community members, our advisory council members, our students, our parents, our teachers, just everybody's really excited. Really nervous — there are different levels of nervousness that come with, "Whoa, this is so new." But so many people are just willing to try new things, and even if it's just something small, just something, whether it's in the classroom, a teacher wants to try something new, or even something for a student to try that's new for them, but old for them because they're those consumers of technology.
The other side of that is, I would say, the fast pace is probably one of the issues that we deal with. The rapid change — it's exciting for me. I can understand where it would make people nervous in, "How do I keep up with the latest technology? How do I continue to infuse my lessons or upgrade these lessons?" And I think that's just going to come with time. And then, there's apprehension that I've heard about, almost an imposter syndrome, if you will, of where, "Am I able to do this? I know nothing about this!" And there are programs out there, and we really try to work as a team. We have different curriculum teams that come together, and parents [who are] being supportive and community members, where everybody just has this understanding of, "Yeah, it's going to be hard. It's going to be difficult, and we don't have the understanding." I don't think there are a lot of people or programs out there that do, but we're willing to do the work, and we're willing to put in the effort and make the mistakes and learn from them to develop the best program that we can.
I think we have a wonderful artificial intelligence framework that all of our curriculum areas can focus on, from programming and machine learning to mathematical reasoning, ethics. These are all a part of the framework to collaborative and creative problem-solving, and it just gives us this foundation to create a continuum of what we want our classes to look like. And I would say it's using that, we have all these tools in place, but I would say probably some of the issues that we've dealt with in our inaugural year is just taking that and going with it and being, "Oh, this is okay. We're going to make these mistakes. We're going to fail; we're going to learn; we're going to do it again, and we're going to continue to improve upon what we've learned and what we're sharing with kids."
And having them as partners, too, are some of my favorite pieces, in really incorporating them as stakeholders, because they're the ones that are in the midst of everything. And I really enjoy learning what they know. I know other teachers involve their students to really help form the curriculum that we do. It's not really done in isolation anymore.
Kevin: Yeah. No, I think that's well said. You are in your first year, but I am sure that, because of the unique nature of your school and the focus on artificial intelligence and really emerging technologies, you're going to be a focal point, and folks are going to come to you when these new technologies come out.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: And you mentioned ChatGPT: I'm sure that people ask you all the time, "Well, what's your take on this? What do you guys think about it?" What is your take on ChatGPT? Because as you know, it's received so much attention, pro and con.
Jason: Sure.
Kevin: You're going to let this machine write his paper. There are all these things. Talk a little bit about your impression of that technology.
Jason: It's amazing. It's amazing technology. And so, it is such polar ends of the spectrum. What an amazing tool, not only to use for education but for any person to be able to have that power! It's like being able to talk to the internet rather than having to look things up. I'm going to try not to say anything cliche; however, the responsibility. So the focus is on digital citizenship: I would consider my platform or where I like to stand with students and in education today is digital citizenship. Are we teaching ethical responsibility, ethical considerations of using such technology? Whether it's ChatGPT, a self-driving car, or just a machine that's making a prediction on whether or not to open a door. It is something as simple as that, as complex and as simple as that.
But in regards to ChatGPT, it does come; it has its pros; it has its cons, whether it's with — everyone goes to cheating. I say everyone …
Kevin: Yeah.
Jason: ... but it's the first thing that, particularly in the literacy world and in the language arts world, "Well, students are going to cheat. They're going to use this." Well, news flash, students have been cheating for millennia. Whether I went and asked my parents or asked my dad, in my day — I often explain to the students — that if my dad said it, it was truth, and I didn't have to walk to the library or go to the library. Nowadays, I can pull a device out of my pocket and be able now to quite literally ask a language model or ask the internet, if you will, what the answer to this is, to get ideas or to confirm my knowledge. But of course, with that comes the ethical implications of: how can these technologies really drive us in a different direction? And I think education is where, for everyone globally, is where we need to focus on these tools and what the potential implications are for good and for not good, for bad.
Kevin: And when it comes to ChatGPT, another reason why I asked is, my sense is that we always default to the negative or the potential negative, and a lot of that's out of fear. But there is this idea of having an ethical framework under which to operate and discuss and instill those ethics in children at an early age, these digital natives, which is something that people complained about with the early usage of video games.
Jason: Yes.
Kevin:
But to do that in a constructive learning environment, I think, is laudable. So, I am glad I asked the question because I really want to make sure that people understand that, while these technologies are great, the best way to ensure they remain great and positive is to talk about those issues.
Jason: Absolutely. And you mentioned fear. I would say the answer to that fear is education.
Kevin: Yes.
Jason: Particularly when it comes to artificial intelligence, these AI tools. AI has the potential in education, or with... I always go to the youth first, with our young generation, but I truly believe that it has the opportunity to exacerbate issues that already exist, that have existed with screens, with the internet, being able to look up all kinds of different answers and searching for things, whether it's to cheat or whether it's to learn. I think if the emphasis is on teaching and learning, and continues to be on teaching and learning with even more emphasis on the learning, teaching kids how to learn, how to use these tools to actually know things, rather than just find information and regurgitate information that came from someone else, how to check whether or not that information is accurate. And these are things that we touched on a little bit in past years over the course of education, but I think nowadays, it's really about, “Is this information accurate?” And that's where the ethical considerations need to come into play, when we have machines that are also predicting or actually making decisions.
And so, we, as humans and students today, need to be able to check that information, learn to use these things, but also, you're using them to quite literally learn what the appropriate information is and being able to disseminate between true and false information.
Kevin: Makes a lot of sense. And Jason, I have one last question, and this is what I really want to know. It's a simple question, frankly. What advice would you give to other school districts, or even a teacher who has heard about what you're doing and wants to explore pursuing a similar approach in their classroom, or a school district that's thinking about it? And I'm talking about the advice in a baby step format. How would you even begin to socialize the conversation with school leaders or school district leaders to begin the process of incorporating more AI-technology-themed learning in your school community?
Jason: I like the way that you talked about baby steps. So, I think the first step is to develop that clear plan. Where do we start? What are our baby steps? And I think the first baby step, if you will, the first piece of the plan, would be to understand the language. I think so often, there's a lot of language that needs to be learned. And so, for lack of a better word, [dealing with] the ignorance that comes along with not understanding, or the non-informed of the language of what this looks like.
And then, the next step to that plan would be: okay, let's look at what we're already doing. Let's take our educational lessons, our curriculum, our content, and let's look at how that applies, or how the language of artificial intelligence or computer science, what does that look like in regards to how it applies to what we're already doing? And I think any school district, any classroom, any teacher, any administration, will be pleasantly surprised to see that you're already doing it. A lot of it comes with just a switch and just an understanding of, oh, mathematical reasoning, collaboration, creative solving, critical thinking: we're doing these things. And we can introduce curriculum or infuse our curriculum with AI concepts just by changing some of the language with what we're already doing. So, I think that's the perfect plan there.
Kevin: Yeah. Jason Hurd, I love what you and your colleagues are doing. Thank you so much for joining us on What I Want to Know.
Jason: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Kevin: Thanks for listening to What I Want to Know. Be sure to follow and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, so you can explore other episodes and dive into our discussions on the future of education, and write a review of the show. I also encourage you to join the conversation and let me know what you want to know using #WIWTK on social media. That's #WIWTK. For more information on Stride and online education, visit stridelearning.com. I'm your host, Kevin P. Chavous. Thank you for joining What I Want to Know.
Meet Jason
Jason Hurd is an artificial intelligence and computer science teacher at Seckinger High School in Gwinnett County, Georgia—the first school in the nation to be built around AI.
Jason has taught computer science in middle and high school for 14 years and was recently nominated Teacher of the Year in his county.
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What I Want to Know
In this podcast, you will hear from leaders in education as we talk through learning solutions for homeschool, online school, education pathways, and topics tailored specifically to online students and parents.
